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Poster: cream-puff-war Date: Dec 7, 2008 8:16am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do Deny(Lying Man)

The motto applies towards you, me and everybody else last time I heard...
The old fashioned golden rule and at least showing gratitude for the basics are stressed during the holidays.

The green and red (psychedelic complimentary colors) plastered with wise sayings of Injun Joe (or whoever you believe in) reflect this time at year's end when we try to get into the spirit of being kind to one another.

No offense meant.
None taken.

"may the baby Jesus open your mind...
and shut your mouth."

That means me too... no one gets to be big daddy unless they're using their brain more and their mouth less.

Are we not men or are we half-asses?
Who among us can poop on each other without people saying something smells...
Why not just throw the baby out with the bathwater, and enjoy total chaos, head-on collisions and blogs without moderation!

Or perhaps on bended knee and fleet of foot, get real and try to make the world a better place, rather than start fights and gang up on the new guy or whatever...
everybody, ok?

This post was modified by cream-puff-war on 2008-12-07 16:16:42

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Poster: midnight sun Date: Dec 4, 2008 3:26pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do Deny(Lying Man)

this place is not unlike The Magic Theatre, which almost everyone makes a mess of ("Steppenwolf" - H. Hesse)

if you haven't experienced it already, the film of the same name (1974 w/Max Von Sydow) has a trippy rendition of the theatre in pastel colors i believe you will appreciate

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Poster: cream-puff-war Date: Dec 7, 2008 9:24am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do Deny(Lying Man)

You might get a kick from the 1967 movie version of Doctor Faustus, based on the Goethe play (actually the Marlowe play).

Some might argue that Faustus cuts a little closer to the bone than Steppenwolf.

One of the strangest movies of all is The World's Greatest Sinner, with soundtrack scored by Frank Zappa... in 1962!

This post was modified by cream-puff-war on 2008-12-07 17:24:03

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Dec 8, 2008 2:08pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do Deny(Lying Man)

CPW, you should know about Svankmajer's work if you don't. He's a Czech filmmaker, usuually animated and using marionettes (beginning of Being John Malkovich was essentially an homage to him). He does a great take on Faust. Here's one little scene (modified for the English speaking world):

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Dec 4, 2008 3:44pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do Deny(Lying Man)

Read the book but have you ever seen that movie? I love it. I believe its Fassbinder directing and Max Von Syndow is Steppenwolf. Very, very trippy. There is (was) a place in Nevada City called the Magic Theatre that played it every year.

Apt analogy (criticizing Garcia like criticizing Goethe?).

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Poster: veblen Date: Dec 4, 2008 9:07pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do Deny(Lying Man)

Sometimes A Great Notion: it took a couple of tries to get into it...not sure, but the movie might have tainted me a little...the movie was good and left an impression that made it difficult for me to enjoy the book...but I was working in vancouver, washington (across the river from portland) of all places and was able to finally sit back and enjoy it...one fine read...

and don't get me started on fassbinder:

Why Does Herr R. Run Amok?
The American Soldier

I really like the early ones...

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 5, 2008 6:07pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do Deny(Lying Man)

Well, well--a real literary turn here! Have to admit, loved the movie and the book was a tiny bit of a struggle, but I am so lame...I do better with military history frankly.

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Poster: veblen Date: Dec 5, 2008 6:59pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do Deny(Lying Man)

I am with you there as well on the military history...always have at least one book in progress...


ceaser: the conquest of gaul (recently re-read livy's the war with hannibal---I am always blown away reading about his alps journey. At one point they reached a mountainous cliff that they saw no way of traversing and gave great thought to turning back. After taking a day or two in thought Hannibal has the ingenious plan of heating the rock with burning trees doused in wine, with the idea of being able to dig a road in the heated rock. Now is that a smart or what???

Of course anytime you read about the romans you do have to put your present day logic aside for the occasional general seeing a dead chicken on the side of the road with its eyes pointing north, which translates into them setting up camp and not being able to depart until they see a dead chicken with its eyes pointed south or something like that. But if you can put some of that stuff aside there are some amazing reads.


napolean's campaigns: sadly, for some reason the napoleanic period are a big gap in my overall history knowledge, let alone military. I was a civil war junkie which kind of dominated that century for me.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 5, 2008 8:39pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do Deny(Lying Man)

Whoa. We connect again. WWII has dominated my interests for some time. Next, WWI. In between and on to Korea, and VNam. Then, back to your time: Punic/Pelopen wars, etc.(Kagan was a good read on the latter).

The Price of Peace (Munich) I keep going on about is really an information treasure explaining much of our situation today, as was Halbers. last book on the Korean story ("Coldest Winter").

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Poster: veblen Date: Dec 5, 2008 8:54pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do Deny(Lying Man)

I skip around a bunch...

With WWII I go through periods where it is eastern front for a time and then the western front through each of the participants...and of late I have been reading a lot of Japanese works on the pacific theater, war crimes, the chinese invasion, war crimes, etc., etc... Reading that is not for the faint of heart, to say the very least...

I try to read primary sources when possible...there are some wonderful diaries and memoirs out there.

One of the first that comes to mind is the forgotton soldier by the german guy sajer and then there is one discussing basically the same time on eastern front but from the perspective of an italian officer which is equally eye opening on the eastern front or war in general. Well he did a lot of walking in the bitter cold with no weapons or protection.

Guderian's memoirs are very good. Recently I read the memoirs of Otto Skorzeny, the ss commando who rescued Mussolini from incarceration by the Italians. Great stories but unfortunately his ego really gets in the way.

so have your ever read any curzio malaparte?

I am going through Kaputt for the second time. It is a book about an italian newspaper writer that is given the royal treatment by the nazi politicos in poland and on the eastern front. It is a novel, but malaparte held the same role during the war in between arrests by mussolini, so he walked the walk so to speak. A good part of the book take part around different types of dinner parties held by the warsaw regional directors and the like. Sheds light on how they acted as nobility and even saw themselves replacing the polish aristocracy. Outside of the story, he is just an exceptional writer.

but if you like that type of read and haven't seen it then check-out kaputt.

malaparte is a very interesting main who ended up designing and building his own house that is on the short list of wonder houses, with the likes of falling waters (always a pennsylvanian at heart). check out villa malaparte...

regarding the korean war: have your read ha jin's war trash from 2004. He looks at the war from the view of a pow from the chinese "volunteer" army, and with his captors being US and South Korean. Another novel, but well worth reading; especially since there will be few other books on the subject and it shows the war in at totally different perspective.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 6, 2008 7:27am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do Deny(Lying Man)

Forgot: thanks for the tips on the Korean stuff.

Yeah, don't you love the facts regarding repatriation for both the European and Korean conflicts (ie, various nationalities not wanting to "go home" to some totalitarian state). For all these totalitarian states, it really puts the moral issue out there in stark terms: we can debate it all we want, east vs west, etc., etc., but these folks made clear their views on their mother countries vis a vis having NO interest in going home...

The other thing all this history has done for me is put the entire Cold War and all that happened with Korea and VNam in a much clearer, and unfortunately, far more cynical light....Nonetheless, one can look at the economy of SKorea, esp vs the N, and in an amazing turn of events see it not as any validation of the domino theory BUT perhaps inadvertently our first successful effort at democracy building

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Poster: veblen Date: Dec 6, 2008 9:18am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do Deny(Lying Man)

by all means, good stuff...

the price of peace looks good and I will pick it up soon...thanks...I find myself reading the nuremberg transcripts way too much...just love the tap-dancing on command issues and many other topics...

on history writers: I felt a little betrayed by the ambrose affair even though I had given up on his stuff prior to his issues. But it did make me feel more secure regarding my use of primary sources; though I still find myself reading a bunch of secondary sources as well..

the funny thing about ambrose is if you read any of his books and watched what he published you could see it all unfolding before your eyes...I guess he was just blinded by it all...he was writing for a contract and getting the books out became more important than the content...so I wasn't too surprised when it happened...just felt bad...

btw: halber. was killed in palo alto...I tried to avoid the case since even though the grad-student driver was at fault in was looking like he was going to get prosecuted by the full-extent of the law and then some due to a push by halber. widow...

on germans: I have read the majority of translated material, as well as a fair amount in german, and you are correct about the memoirs, diaries seem to be a little bit better since they were primarily written at the time, but those same books can have some pretty apologetic forwards, after forwards, etc., etc...memoirs are just tainted with time...sadly, at times I can get lost in maps, dispatches, meeting minutes, staff and other docs, etc., etc. as much as anything else...

at least the germans have faced it and don't believe that the entire war basically comes down to the atomic bomb in august of 45..."why did they do that?"...

anyway, I can relate to being nazied-out...along with being sovieted-out, since I majored in soviet studies and econ...one of the reasons that I continue to read BC history is that the 20th century can be a downer...

this note has me thinking of robert klien's routine during the waldhiem affair:

"Yes, I was a member of the brownshirts, we were a bowling team that played on friday and saturday nights and then had a few at the beer hall prior to going home." "so some of the boys did some marching and singing and head-beating on the way home; though I swear, I was only in it for the bowling..."

well back to dead land...tomorrow is a special 40th anniversary and I need to mentally prepare...

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 6, 2008 10:55am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do Deny(Lying Man)

Damn--can't stop responding! So much resonation here...

Agree completely on Ambrose! Early, good-okay, later, bad (hmm, sounds like me and the DEAD, eh?); or his emphasis on issues/themes rather than facts, ie, his patriotic biases. Have read

Lost in maps?! Diaries, meetings (I spent a day reading the compilation of ALL orders/decrees issued by Hilter from 39-42!)?! Are you kidding!? Do you have the "history of central Europe in maps?" I love that kind of stuff...keep one by the head where I do some of my best work...har, har...but, seriously.

Yep--on Halbs. I had only read a little of his, and then my kids got me the Coldest Winter after I read about his death. Really liked it. Balanced writer, with a bit of an edge/bias, but close to my view/take on things so it wasn't irksome for me.

We're not going to be able to stop this...

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Poster: Baron Lacovrayne Date: Dec 6, 2008 7:51pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do Deny(Lying Man)

Hello, just wanted to chime in on

memoirs vs. diaries, veblen and WT had interesting points.

Albert Speer's memoirs (and his Nuremberg trial defense) were among the more respected, but newly (more publicly) aired documents reveal much more than he admitted.

What do you make of the recently updated Kubicek memoirs of the young Hitler... formerly his book was refuted by some as having been revised by him to be acceptable for publication,
the new version is supposedly a more honest or full account, but original notes had been replaced by memories.

And one of Himmler's day-to-day appointment books has been found, which is said to be invaluable in that it places the SS chief at certain locations etc.
I haven't checked that out yet, sounds a bit dry.

Hitler's Diaries, Starring Adolf Hitler. The Rise & Fall & Mind & God of Adolf Hitler --
I have no idea if this TV documentary or movie is based on actual documents, it appeared in 2006and hardly made a ripple.

Zhukov's memoirs looked like interesting if a bit thick, I didn't have a chance to read them yet.

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Poster: veblen Date: Dec 6, 2008 9:45pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do Deny(Lying Man)

thanks baron for the good lead on kubizek, the updated edition looks like it is closer to the original/intended text.
amazon product description:
"This is the first edition to be published in English since 1955 and it corrects many changes made for reasons of political correctness. It also includes important sections which were excised from the original English translation. August Kubizek met Adolf Hitler in 1904 while they were both competing for standing room at the opera. Their mutual passion for music created a strong bond, and over the next four years they became close friends. Kubizek describes a reticent young man, painfully shy, yet capable of bursting into hysterical fits of anger if anyone disagreed with him. The two boys would often talk for hours on end; Hitler found Kubizek to be a very good listener, a worthy confidant to his hopes and dreams. In 1908 Kubizek moved to Vienna and shared a room with Hitler at 29 Stumpergasse. During this time, Hitler tried to get into art school, but he was unsuccessful. With his money fast running out, he found himself sinking to the lower depths of the city: an unkind world of isolation and 'constant unappeasable hunger'. Hitler moved out of the flat in November, without leaving a forwarding address; Kubizek did not meet his friend again until 1938. The Young Hitler I Knew tells the story of an extraordinary friendship, and gives fascinating insight into Hitler's character during these formative years. A must for Hitler scholars."
the zhukov' memiors: I have been avoiding book stores due to cash but it is on the short list. I found them on-line in russian but I haven't read russian in five years or so, but I might give a chapter or so a go until I can get the english version. Unfortunately there can be big gaps in Soviet memoirs but zhukov's is suppose to have some good stuff if you wade through it all. Overall khrushchev's was good but the level of honesty and his memory seems to change as the book progresses. Both getting worse as his power grew...

albert speer's books were some of my first reads in the area; but at times I got the feeling that he was using coming clean as a nice way to hide. Playing the mirror game...

I recall hearing about himmler's appt. books and want to get to it in time...

the victor klemperer diaries are good: I will bear witness

also, thanks on the hitler's diaries dvd, as much for the second disk on the japanese in nanking as the hitler disk.

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Poster: Baron Lacovrayne Date: Dec 8, 2008 9:13am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do Deny(Lying Man)

thx, veblen for the victor klemperer diaries tip.

("In one May 1942 passage, the Klemperers are forced to put down their household cat, a tomcat named Muschel, because of a restriction on pets"
_wikipedia_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Klemperer)

this will require some tears to read volume 1 alone of the Klemperer diary.
I Shall Bear Witness

this is the other side of the history, of the forgotten man
- sounds like a must read -
thx again.

glad to have shared a few titles you are interested in also.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 7, 2008 12:17pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do Deny(Lying Man)

Whoooaa; hey there BC! Great leads. For all I have read of the diaries, memoirs stuff, it is mostly the German FMarsh's rather than the politicos (though have caught a bit on some of them). Likewise for the Allies, though having spent some time with the big names (lots on Churchill, Stalin, and the players in the many get-togethers and housewarming parties they had at Tehran, Potsdam and the like).

So, will keep an eye open for the sources you listed; looks like you and veb are out ahead of me on some of this really primary literature. I have probably spent a bit more on the secondary compilation sorts--like the Halsey's Typhoon I mentioned above (ie, ones in which they are better than fiction as an adventure/action account, rather than the historical narratives of a given individual).

Have read a crap load on Rommel, Macarthur & Patton, and Monty, but suppose these are the ones so often covered by us in the West...have to give Erwin some credit I always thought, in spite of his faults.


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Poster: Baron Lacovrayne Date: Dec 8, 2008 9:29am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do Deny(Lying Man)

thx, Will Tell - excellent titles you mention, indeed.

2 books I'm currently reading-
warning - these are not the usual prima donna glamour generals such as Rommel and Zhukov, more interesting to study perhaps than:

Partners In Command * George Marshall and Dwight Eisenhower In War And Peace (Mark Perry, 2007)

1943 The Victory That Never Was (John Grigg, 1980)
Grigg analyzes the delay of the second front and the effects the delay had on the whole war.
For instance, the strategy determined at Casablanca - to invade Sicily and Italy - the waste of time, lives, resources. Grigg contends these and other mistakes lengthened the war and set the stage for the Cold War, economic problems still affecting the world today.

1943 is quite a scathing and emphatic p.o.v. - also it's a good tome for skipping around in.

keep in touch, with more findings, suggestions!

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 8, 2008 2:39pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do Deny(Lying Man)

Yep BC, my read on Italy is that it was the one theatre that approximated WWI in stupidity. Clearly a problem. It was perhaps unavoidable, but most view it happened given the way we progressed (ie, going to Africa "a side show to a side show") and in the end, goes back to my point a month ago with Kochman and NC: it put the onus on the Russkies for the real work...

The recent works by Davies and Atkinson provide some interesting insights on this and the eastern European settings.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 6, 2008 7:17am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do Deny(Lying Man)

When I saw your ref to Livy, I knew you were in deep. Yes, I have done both--primary can be rewarding, but having read virtually all the original German contributions, they can get tiring at times, predictably apologists, etc. (but like you, Guderian is good, and I enjoyed von Manstein). I loved the Forgotten Soldier you reference as well, but have been spending more time with well written secondary sources lately (Atkinson and Davies are two of the better current ones, IMHO). Some of the oldfarts are great as well (Corn. Ryan, etc).

Great going over it with you.

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Poster: amosearle Date: Dec 4, 2008 7:33am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do Deny(Lying Man)

OK by me.
I appreciate your appeal for whirled peas in this matter.